1 00:00:03,310 --> 00:00:06,400 [Music] 2 00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:17,639 I 3 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,440 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 4 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:43,000 with me George Gallow and me gatri most 5 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,719 of the great things that were ever 6 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,559 achieved in this country came from the 7 00:00:44,719 --> 00:00:48,840 labor movement trade unions in the 8 00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:51,120 workplace labor in Parliament and 9 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,800 Municipal Power across the country 10 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,520 that's not to say that everything they 11 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,120 did was good all that they never did 12 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,359 anything bad just that few of the good 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,719 things would have happened without them 14 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:04,479 20 years ago however with the Advent of 15 00:01:01,719 --> 00:01:06,799 Tony Blair and new labor the party 16 00:01:04,479 --> 00:01:08,520 profoundly changed its character along 17 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:11,920 with its relationship to the trade 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:15,000 unions who this week in 1900 gave birth 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:18,000 to the labor party at their Foundation 20 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,759 conference 14 years on the party is set 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,560 to relegate to history their 22 00:01:19,759 --> 00:01:24,159 relationship with the unions at a 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,079 special conference its platform 24 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:29,400 attitudes policies and principles now 25 00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:31,640 bear little resemblance to what was set 26 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,560 out in the that Foundation conference in 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:37,960 1900 and today we're asking the question 28 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,479 the labor party what's left our guest to 29 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:41,600 discuss this is one of the most 30 00:01:39,479 --> 00:01:44,320 important men in the most important 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,399 unions in the country my own Union unite 32 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:49,640 which I joined on Christmas Eve 1973 as 33 00:01:47,399 --> 00:01:53,399 the transport and general Workers Union 34 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:56,320 he's Andrew Murray Andrew uh welcome to 35 00:01:53,399 --> 00:01:58,640 Sputnik is it the end at this special 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,079 Conference of the relationship between 37 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:04,200 organized labor and the party which bore 38 00:02:01,079 --> 00:02:06,960 their name no it's certainly a dramatic 39 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,399 change but it's not the end uh after the 40 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,319 special conference all the most 41 00:02:09,399 --> 00:02:13,400 important or the largest trade unions in 42 00:02:11,319 --> 00:02:16,040 the country will remain Affiliated to 43 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,080 the labor party that uh connection uh 44 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,319 will still be there there's going to be 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:24,840 a difficult process of change over 5 46 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:26,599 years uh 5e period to 2020 uh at the end 47 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:30,000 of that will the landscape look 48 00:02:26,599 --> 00:02:33,680 different quite possibly but uh as of 49 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,280 now I think all the major unions are 50 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:39,040 still with the labor party and in 51 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,800 particular are with the effort to get 52 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,440 the present government out of office 53 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,400 which means uh inevitably unavoidably uh 54 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,400 fighting for a labor victory at next 55 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:52,120 year's general election well few of us 56 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:54,120 have 2020 Vision but uh I mean aren't 57 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,720 the unions being treated like the 58 00:02:54,120 --> 00:03:00,280 embarrassing elderly relative that 59 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:02,040 drooling in the Attic kept away from 60 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,280 visitors and poite Company there has 61 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,840 been a lot of that since the start of 62 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,599 new labor maybe even elements of it uh 63 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,519 before that isn't a golden age of the 64 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:14,239 union labor party relationship it's 65 00:03:11,519 --> 00:03:15,680 always been uh fractur it's always been 66 00:03:14,239 --> 00:03:18,400 difficult you'll remember very well from 67 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:21,280 the 1970s how difficult that 68 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,840 relationship got of course it Chang beer 69 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,640 and sandwiches at Downing Street with 70 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,280 labor prime minister you can hardly 71 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:30,120 imagine now neither the beer nor the 72 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,120 sandwiches nor the visitors no no that 73 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,879 is a piece of history and I don't think 74 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,840 that will that will come back I hope Ed 75 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:38,319 Milan's prime minister after the next 76 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,280 election he doesn't look like a beer and 77 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:44,360 sandwiches uh man particularly uh uh to 78 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:47,159 me but the relationship will be uh will 79 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,599 be changing I think where we are with Ed 80 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:51,000 millerand is in a better place than 81 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:54,200 where we were with Tony Blair because 82 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,640 Tony Blair had uh a really ingrained 83 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,079 contempt for organized labor and 84 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,840 ingrained contempt for many of the 85 00:03:57,079 --> 00:04:01,640 values of the party he came to leave if 86 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:04,159 not all of them just two days ago 87 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:08,079 Alistair Campbell was out a public 88 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:11,840 fundraiser for new labor Peter mandon is 89 00:04:08,079 --> 00:04:14,120 back on the creep uh endorsing Ed Balls 90 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:17,600 as a one of the few men who understand 91 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:22,000 the modern economy and uh Tony Blair has 92 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:24,960 been reinstated to an election uh 93 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,520 position albe it in the second tier but 94 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,840 nonetheless uh far from 95 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:33,080 banished and of course the shadow 96 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:36,520 cabinet is still not withstanding recent 97 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:40,199 changes still uh dominated or at least 98 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:43,440 with a very substantial force of Blair 99 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:46,280 new labor types holding in many cases Ed 100 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,039 mban to to hostage well none of that is 101 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:51,840 wrong George but I think there is a a 102 00:04:48,039 --> 00:04:54,160 battle going on firstly let's not ever 103 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:57,080 think it was all radically different I 104 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:59,840 mean right now there is a lively and not 105 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,280 unjustified Nostalgia for the 1945 106 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:03,160 government that introduced a National 107 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,919 Health Service that maintained full 108 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,120 employment that nationalized many key 109 00:05:04,919 --> 00:05:09,479 Industries yet you'll be well aware that 110 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,360 that same government uh launched many 111 00:05:09,479 --> 00:05:13,080 colonial wars of aggression took Britain 112 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,160 into NATO took Britain into the Korean 113 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,240 War which in the end undid its social 114 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,160 program so even back then in what is now 115 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,560 regarded as a golden age of Labor there 116 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,280 was a battle going on between 117 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:26,039 Progressive and reactionary or more 118 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:28,680 right-wing uh elements now today 119 00:05:26,039 --> 00:05:30,759 everything you say uh is right on the 120 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,000 other hand one could will Ed millerand 121 00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:36,199 has said he will tackle Energy prices he 122 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,840 will force uh house house building a big 123 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:40,560 house building program he'll repeal the 124 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:43,800 bedroom tax it's the old question which 125 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,280 people say is the glass half full or is 126 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,280 it half empty which I would say isn't a 127 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,560 Marxist approach to watering glass the 128 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:52,759 question is is it filling up or draining 129 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,199 away and who who can actually give a 130 00:05:52,759 --> 00:05:57,120 categorical answer to this I don't think 131 00:05:55,199 --> 00:06:00,160 anyone could be certain but there is an 132 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:02,000 argument uh going on uh I'm 133 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,720 convinced that Union voices are being 134 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:08,479 heard uh in that uh public opinion even 135 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:11,080 the Diest new labor apparat is vaguely 136 00:06:08,479 --> 00:06:13,440 aware that after the crash of 2008 the 137 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,599 old model can't be brought back to life 138 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,479 uh intact they realize something has to 139 00:06:15,599 --> 00:06:21,319 be done uh differently and these things 140 00:06:18,479 --> 00:06:24,199 will be uh resolved to some degree on on 141 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:26,160 the power of the contending uh forces if 142 00:06:24,199 --> 00:06:27,800 the trade unions uh get their act 143 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,840 together politically and industrially 144 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:33,120 rebuild their strength that will be an 145 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:36,319 important weight uh in the scales and 146 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,880 that's why um Len mclusky warned this 147 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:40,039 week the leader of United leader of 148 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:43,080 unite the General Secretary of unite uh 149 00:06:40,039 --> 00:06:44,479 warned against any Prospect of a lib lab 150 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,400 agreement after the next general 151 00:06:44,479 --> 00:06:47,960 election if there's another hung 152 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,280 Parliament because the presence of 153 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,720 people like CLE the orange book free 154 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:54,199 market liberals in Alliance with some of 155 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,080 those elements in the shadow cabinet 156 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:59,680 that you rightly say have hardly broken 157 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:02,280 from the neoliberal dogmas of the past 158 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:05,240 that of course would fatally compromise 159 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:07,840 the best intentions of Ed millerand and 160 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,960 the the social Democrats uh in in the 161 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:14,039 labor party when I attended my first 162 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:19,199 labor Party Conference in 163 00:07:14,039 --> 00:07:23,039 1974 we the unions had 80% of the voting 164 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:25,000 power in that conference we elected a 165 00:07:23,039 --> 00:07:28,080 national executive committee which had 166 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:31,080 real power was a real powerful organ in 167 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:34,240 the party and the unions were 168 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,599 overwhelmingly decisive in those 169 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,960 elections uh they elected the treasurer 170 00:07:36,599 --> 00:07:42,520 they elected the Trade union section uh 171 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:45,680 and uh the constituency labor parties 172 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:49,039 were of course to the left of the unions 173 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:51,840 uh in those days when I entered 174 00:07:49,039 --> 00:07:55,720 parliament in 1987 with my transport 175 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:58,360 workers bad on we were some 40 or 50 176 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,720 sponsored members of parliament by the 177 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:04,599 Union in fact in fact labor leaders like 178 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:07,280 Tony Blair uh scampered to join our 179 00:08:04,599 --> 00:08:10,400 group as Trade Union uh 180 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:14,000 sponsored that year is now completely 181 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:17,720 gone uh now nobody wears a trade Union 182 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:20,680 badge in Parliament I can assure you uh 183 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:24,639 and indeed the class composition of the 184 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,840 labor party is is overwhelmingly changed 185 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:30,560 uh when I entered Parliament more than 186 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,159 100 maybe 150 MPS where what you could 187 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,479 Clearly say were blue collar 188 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:38,000 workingclass uh MPS now you'd be lucky 189 00:08:35,479 --> 00:08:41,680 to find five or 10 indeed the whole 190 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,760 foler in broo was about the need to get 191 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:48,040 a workingclass labor mp uh into 192 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:50,720 Parliament um I take your view that no 193 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,680 one can predict the outcome of this next 194 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:56,279 period but you sound rather more 195 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:58,760 confident about it than I I'm resolved I 196 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:03,320 think resolved to be in the struggle uh 197 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:05,720 uh optimism uh of the will uh that's my 198 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:09,399 attitude uh towards this there aren't 199 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:12,160 any predetermined outcomes obviously 200 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:14,839 this debate takes place against enormous 201 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,640 setbacks for socialism in the world and 202 00:09:14,839 --> 00:09:19,519 the labor movement in Britain and other 203 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,560 countries over the last uh generation we 204 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:23,399 haven't recovered fully from those 205 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:25,240 setbacks but you have to come back to 206 00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:28,720 the the position we have a general 207 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:32,240 election a little over a year away uh 208 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,480 realistically in the great majority of 209 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,600 constituencies uh the uh the choices the 210 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,040 reelecting a candidate from the 211 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,959 Coalition parties or a candidate from 212 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:44,160 the labor party and that uh and that's 213 00:09:41,959 --> 00:09:47,120 something we have to fight to make the 214 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,560 best of uh uh in my opinion at this 215 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,320 juncture if after a general election we 216 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,560 find we're in a different political 217 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,839 situation emerging for the better or the 218 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:58,000 worst of course we have to make the best 219 00:09:54,839 --> 00:09:59,640 judgments we can at that time Andrew 220 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,720 coming from the Netherlands the way I 221 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,240 see it is that the labor party the 222 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,680 classical formation of the labor party 223 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:10,079 um changing and moving further away from 224 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:13,360 its original principles it's not um is 225 00:10:10,079 --> 00:10:14,880 not unique to UK it's throughout Europe 226 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,040 that's certainly the case the problems 227 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,120 were discussing are international ones 228 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,560 certainly paneuropean ones the same 229 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,600 factors that have impacted on the 230 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,600 British labor party in a particularly 231 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,760 lurid form are present uh generally of 232 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,720 course each country also has its own uh 233 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,480 its own background in some countries is 234 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,360 France uh Italy there was powerful uh 235 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,560 communist parties uh at one stage there 236 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,519 I know there is a powerful left of left 237 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:42,279 of labor party uh in the Netherlands 238 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:45,320 with its own roots and 239 00:10:42,279 --> 00:10:47,240 uhy but I still think Germany is a good 240 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,800 example no yeah well Germany of course 241 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,839 is a unique absolutely unique that that 242 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,040 half the country or a third of the 243 00:10:51,839 --> 00:10:55,519 country used to be socialist and that of 244 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,680 course is where the main electoral base 245 00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:59,760 of delinker uh exists that's not a 246 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,959 situation we can recreate in Britain 247 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:04,120 when none of the countes ever been 248 00:11:00,959 --> 00:11:06,760 socialist no especially with the system 249 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,680 look but I think the general issue which 250 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:12,720 is still reuniting the principles of 251 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:14,600 socialism with the mass of workingclass 252 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,680 political people through uh people 253 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:20,279 through their organizations that Still 254 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:22,240 Remains Remains the task and if I say I 255 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:23,680 think now it is still the sort of 256 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,079 argument to be had a battle to be fought 257 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:29,360 in the labor party I I don't at all set 258 00:11:27,079 --> 00:11:31,480 myself up to go to the Netherlands or to 259 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,680 France or to Spain and say that they 260 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,560 would make the same choice in their 261 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:36,360 circumstances there are differences 262 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,200 Andrew Murray thanks for that a good 263 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,760 argument we'll have to continue it let's 264 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,040 hope we're both still here in 2020 with 265 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,040 Clear Vision coming up after the break 266 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,480 we'll be looking at the breakup of the 267 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,760 Ukraine which looks increasingly likely 268 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,519 following the Western funded and backed 269 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,920 coup which has taken place in Kiev we'll 270 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:54,920 be right 271 00:11:56,930 --> 00:12:00,920 [Music] 272 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,760 back welcome back to Sputnik when we 273 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,480 discussed Ukraine on Sputnik just a 274 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,320 couple of weeks ago few could have 275 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,920 predicted the pace and the shape of 276 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,320 things to come a fascist anti-semitic 277 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,839 Squad of street fighters as some are 278 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,760 calling them then scarcely seemed 279 00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:18,000 capable of overthrowing the government 280 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,240 binning the Constitution and beginning a 281 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,839 process which may well lead to the 282 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,600 dismemberment of their country but they 283 00:12:22,839 --> 00:12:27,720 have the Ukrainian president is now 284 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,320 apparently yet another Resident of a 285 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,120 Moscow Hotel while an unelected 286 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,760 Pretender to his post is Seeking a 287 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,760 bailout of billions from the EU which 288 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,959 the people of Greece had earlier been 289 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,880 told could not be afforded and the 290 00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:43,480 absence of which created the whole 291 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,519 crisis in the Ukraine in the first place 292 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,480 today we're asking the question the 293 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:50,279 Ukraine was right joining us now to 294 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,480 discuss developments in the Ukraine is 295 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:54,680 writer commentator and candidate in the 296 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,720 forthcoming European elections Nick 297 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:59,360 right Nick thanks for joining us when we 298 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,760 last dealt with this it looked like 299 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:06,279 yanukovich had a problem but that uh it 300 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:08,959 was unlikely that the groups on the 301 00:13:06,279 --> 00:13:11,040 Square would succeed in overthrowing him 302 00:13:08,959 --> 00:13:13,800 but they have how do you account for 303 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,320 that external factors I think are are 304 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,000 determining 305 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:22,760 here the Ukraine sits at the crossroads 306 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:25,639 of Europe and Asia it's always been an 307 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,800 area where competing interests have 308 00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:30,959 clashed in this 309 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:33,959 case the post-war settlement if you like 310 00:13:30,959 --> 00:13:36,440 flowing from the defeat of fascism has 311 00:13:33,959 --> 00:13:39,560 unraveled arising principally from the 312 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:42,560 dissolution of the Soviet Union but also 313 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:45,639 through the Eastward expansion of the 314 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:48,600 European Union and of course NATO so the 315 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:51,560 borders of Russia with Western Europe if 316 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,519 you like traditionally or historically 317 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,800 the B border between socialism and 318 00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:59,320 capitalism no longer characterized in 319 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:02,560 that way as move further to the east but 320 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:05,040 creating enormous tensions within Russia 321 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,440 but also it's presenting enormous 322 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,160 opportunities for very powerful forces 323 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,480 in the West in the European Union in the 324 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,360 North Atlantic Treaty Organization 325 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,959 Germany and Poland seem to be playing uh 326 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,279 a leading role who would have thought 327 00:14:17,959 --> 00:14:24,040 that uh that would turn out to be the 328 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:27,079 case but let's analyze the forces at 329 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,320 work in the square in the Independence 330 00:14:27,079 --> 00:14:32,440 Square the maidan 331 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:35,040 uh just describe for us if you would 332 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:39,000 what's right and what's anything else 333 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:41,759 amongst those forces well they reflect 334 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,040 really these external pressures 335 00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:46,959 interestingly Germany which of course is 336 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,639 driving the European motor in this 337 00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:51,600 particular incident and generally 338 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:55,160 speaking in fact um its preferred man 339 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Klitschko is really unable to perform 340 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,680 the role that German Capital has 341 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:03,480 assigned to him and more Dynamic and 342 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,639 certainly deeply reactionary forces have 343 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:10,480 set the pace in the in Independent 344 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:13,959 Square in the in Kiev and they reflect 345 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:17,839 uh not just the pressure of capital and 346 00:15:13,959 --> 00:15:20,320 of the western uh alliances but also the 347 00:15:17,839 --> 00:15:22,639 unraveling of the tensions within 348 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,160 Ukrainian Society if you think of the 349 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:29,199 Ukraine has been a country in which the 350 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:32,079 surrounding nationalities all interact 351 00:15:29,199 --> 00:15:34,040 you can see that it's a always a 352 00:15:32,079 --> 00:15:35,600 political problem no matter who's the 353 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,800 dominant political force there for 354 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,600 instance at the end of the second world 355 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,759 war we had a situation in which as the 356 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,880 Nazi army retreated and the Red Army 357 00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:49,440 Advanced other forces came into play and 358 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,639 so we have uh Hungarian polish and 359 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:55,639 National minorities who 360 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:59,560 are part of population movements take uh 361 00:15:55,639 --> 00:16:03,360 the city which is the center of the Neo 362 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:05,279 fascist force in contemporary Ukraine 363 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,560 before the second world war it was the 364 00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:11,680 largest population of Jewish people in 365 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:14,040 the country now it's uh denuded of Jews 366 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,000 for the well-known historical reasons 367 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,959 and anti-Semitism of course is a very 368 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,839 active factor in all of this with the 369 00:16:17,959 --> 00:16:21,880 competing nationalisms and the competing 370 00:16:19,839 --> 00:16:24,079 commercial political and economic 371 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:27,199 interests you can have anti-Semitism 372 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:29,800 without Jews and in fact in the Ukraine 373 00:16:27,199 --> 00:16:33,800 now there are very few Jews but the one 374 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:36,160 of the remaining rabbis in Kiev has 375 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:39,279 called on Jews to actually leave the 376 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,160 city and maybe leave the country such as 377 00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:43,880 the 378 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:46,360 resurgent anti-Semitism and Neo fascism 379 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,519 in some cases outright Fascism and 380 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,519 others of these forces that have now 381 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:53,199 come to the four the European Union and 382 00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:55,600 the United States are going to find that 383 00:16:53,199 --> 00:16:56,600 very difficult horse to ride no well 384 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,279 they've 385 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,160 um set this hair running and they can't 386 00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:03,480 control it really there's an attempt 387 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,839 here by the forces the most reactionary 388 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,520 forces in Ukrainian Society to make 389 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,640 themselves more presentable to the 390 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,799 European Union because selling this 391 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:15,679 package to people in Eastern Europe is 392 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:17,679 very very difficult I mean one of the uh 393 00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:21,760 frankly offensive things taking place is 394 00:17:17,679 --> 00:17:24,480 the way in which the BBC described um 395 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,360 the Nazi Collaborators who continued to 396 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,240 fight against Soviet power in the 397 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:29,440 Ukraine after the second world war as 398 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,160 partisan 399 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,840 appropriating the term if you like 400 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,880 that's of the people that they were 401 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,200 murdering and assisting the Nazis Mur 402 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,400 which describes anti-fascist Fighters 403 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,200 throughout the whole of Europe there's a 404 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,200 a serious attempt here to manipulate 405 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,480 public opinion to reshape our 406 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,559 understanding of history and that's 407 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,440 vitally important I you have to think I 408 00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:51,080 think you have to take an historical 409 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,600 view a longer view of what's happening 410 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,720 in Ukraine to see the forces that are in 411 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,120 play today are in some senses 412 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,600 continuation of forces that are in play 413 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,559 before the second World War during the 414 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,360 second world war during the Nazi 415 00:18:01,559 --> 00:18:07,360 occupation absolutely now Russia hasn't 416 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:11,440 really spoken yet it's impossible to 417 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:15,280 imagine that Russia can accept that the 418 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:18,600 45% or so of Ukrainian citizens who are 419 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:20,880 Russians speaking uh and including 420 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,280 ethnic Russians in very substantial 421 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,919 numbers in the South and the east of the 422 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:29,400 country can be left to The Tender 423 00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:32,240 Mercies of uh the revanchist 424 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,600 uh forces that we're talking about so 425 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,960 what could Russia 426 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,880 do well Russia's got national interests 427 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:41,840 in here but national interests I think 428 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,440 are also uh shot through with economic 429 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,720 interests as well and there are various 430 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,520 economic forces at play here and uh the 431 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,880 various regimes in particular uh the 432 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:55,280 leadership of the party of the regions 433 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,799 has uh obviously had a its eye on the 434 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,480 importance of the economic relationship 435 00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:02,400 with Russia particularly uh particularly 436 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:05,240 Gas Energy supplies but Europe or rather 437 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,000 the European Union European Union rather 438 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,039 Europe actually have an interest in this 439 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,440 as well because this is a Transit point 440 00:19:09,039 --> 00:19:12,440 so it's critically important for all 441 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,080 kinds of economic interests I mean 442 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:18,159 timoshenko another 443 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,960 reactionary irreparably corrupt and 444 00:19:18,159 --> 00:19:23,400 compromised figure uh reflects if you 445 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,480 like that dichotomy one one day she 446 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,240 leans to the West one day she leans to 447 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,600 the east if there's profit to be made in 448 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,039 the deal on the East she'll take it if 449 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,720 she was as the gas princess absolutely 450 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:35,520 but at the same time she plays games 451 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:39,400 with the West she plays games with the 452 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:41,679 most reactionary forces in uh Eastern 453 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,400 Galia in particular um and is in 454 00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:46,400 competition for them for vote with them 455 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,080 for votes in that part of the world uh 456 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,880 the I I suspect that all of the 457 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,440 political formations possibly with the 458 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,640 exception of the Ukrainian Communist 459 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,320 Party are in a state of great flux at 460 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,360 the moment and we may well see some 461 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,159 political realignments well the Country 462 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:03,039 Split up mean is it is partition of the 463 00:20:01,159 --> 00:20:05,080 country a 464 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:06,400 possibility I think it's a possibility 465 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,320 but I think there are powerful interest 466 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,840 against that both on in the European 467 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,799 Union and in in Russia I think there is 468 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,720 some pressure and this may reflect 469 00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:17,919 tensions with inside the European Union 470 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,799 and tensions between the European Union 471 00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:23,080 and the United States and was that F 472 00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:25,240 Well publicized spat between the USA in 473 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,039 the European Union a few weeks ago there 474 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,720 are tensions there which may mean that 475 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:32,720 people would prefer a Federal solution 476 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,440 to the National question in the Ukraine 477 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,240 and clearly when you look at a map of 478 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:40,440 the Ukraine I mean if you if you impose 479 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,320 the British first pass of post electoral 480 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,760 system on the Ukraine there' probably be 481 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,559 half a dozen seats of which would be 482 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,520 swing seats the rest are fairly clearly 483 00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:50,080 identified on one side of the other but 484 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,080 it's a very fragmented picture you know 485 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:55,120 it's not East and West it's there are 486 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,520 National minorities there are langu 487 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,600 linguistic groups there are economic 488 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,799 interests for instance there's several 489 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,640 several dozen MPS elected in the last 490 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:05,400 election who weren't on any other the 491 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,720 party less they had a they had a serious 492 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:10,000 local base so it's a much more complex 493 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,159 political situation in the Ukraine than 494 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,360 I think the simplistic analyses which 495 00:21:12,159 --> 00:21:17,400 are predominant in the media in Britain 496 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,960 and Western Europe and the United States 497 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,080 really allow for but the president is 498 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,760 now seemingly out of the country and new 499 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,600 government is being formed but the 500 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,480 people on the streets still don't seem 501 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,600 very satisfied I are they not just a 502 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,679 bunch of hooligans can there's a very 503 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,880 powerful hooligan element in there 504 00:21:33,679 --> 00:21:37,919 that's absolutely true but I think 505 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,080 there's a also one of the factors 506 00:21:37,919 --> 00:21:42,960 driving the the the movement on the 507 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,360 streets is the Deep revulsion right 508 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,200 throughout Ukrainian Society against 509 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:50,559 corruption and this is the inevitable 510 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:54,640 consequence of the breakup of the Soviet 511 00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:57,679 Union and of the uh encroachment of uh 512 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,840 foreign Capital with a particular with 513 00:21:57,679 --> 00:22:02,480 particular interest and also the way in 514 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,919 which uh people were a some very corrupt 515 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,120 people and criminal people were able to 516 00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:08,520 aggregate enormous wealth they've 517 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:10,600 appropriated Collective social public 518 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,480 property it's now private property and 519 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,120 with that comes the inevitable 520 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,159 corruption and with that political 521 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:18,279 stresses and strains but I think what's 522 00:22:16,159 --> 00:22:22,480 driving the street in has been over the 523 00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:24,159 last few uh weeks has been um the 524 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,799 actions are the far right who are 525 00:22:24,159 --> 00:22:29,120 particularly well organized and 526 00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:31,679 supported very interesting funded funded 527 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:33,600 very interesting commentary in uh in the 528 00:22:31,679 --> 00:22:36,799 Chinese press just the last couple of 529 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,480 days which pointed to the um theatrical 530 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:43,039 orchestrated visual nature of the 531 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:46,000 protests in central Kiev in which uh 532 00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:49,200 they had a kind of uh spectacle a about 533 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,600 them but for instance um you know these 534 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,440 power these Flames every time the Flames 535 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,840 died down somebody put a bit more 536 00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:01,520 kerosene on them so that the uh the the 537 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:02,679 cameras had a uh a uh dramatic image and 538 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,360 I think we have to be very critical of 539 00:23:02,679 --> 00:23:05,919 the media in this country I mean Channel 540 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:09,679 4 News which is probably one of the 541 00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:12,400 better news services in Britain um had 542 00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:16,799 some frankly appalling coverage from 543 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,520 Matt Fry um of course he's a uh got a 544 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:20,480 power a big track record in Central 545 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,799 Europe and Germany you know and I think 546 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,559 we have to be very sensitive to what the 547 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,559 different forces are at play here and 548 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:29,440 how these are represented in the media 549 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:32,480 the the political reality on the ground 550 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,279 is more complex than it appears uh on 551 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,520 the surface Nick right thanks for 552 00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:37,520 joining us fo 553 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,640 Nick now it's your turn to tell us what 554 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:47,000 you think in the social media review 555 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:49,760 what's rattling G labor party what's 556 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,960 left someone under the name Teresa may 557 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,640 says left right when the light goes dark 558 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,120 and they're all in the shadows there's 559 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,320 no difference they are all literally in 560 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:02,480 it together what a wonderful tweet that 561 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,880 can't be the real M I don't think so 562 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,000 either but it's a it's a wonderfully 563 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,679 profound observation very I must say 564 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,600 Andrew is very sanguin about I didn't 565 00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:14,559 want to embarrass him but the unions are 566 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,080 paying a huge sum of money many millions 567 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:19,240 of pounds every year for clearly and and 568 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,559 clearly 569 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:26,240 delineated diminishing returns anyway go 570 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:28,399 on wake up UK says labor brings nothing 571 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,080 to the table except embarrassment and 572 00:24:28,399 --> 00:24:32,720 this is exactly the line which was in 573 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,640 the guardian uh this past week about 574 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,159 Tony Blair of course how Blair has gone 575 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,760 from an icon to an embarrassment but uh 576 00:24:38,159 --> 00:24:43,320 Milan doesn't seem able to shake him off 577 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:46,159 another good one from Russell Bland 578 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:48,440 saying how about right labor quite catch 579 00:24:46,159 --> 00:24:51,600 you double meaning yet only one is 580 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,720 correct they're right as in Tor right I 581 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,720 don't actually myself uh accept that we 582 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,360 will of course be discussing both the 583 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,640 conservative party and the liberal 584 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,840 Democrats for that matter over the 585 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,640 course of the next months and uh no 586 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,880 doubt that will become apparent so the 587 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,679 Ukraine was right there to which Maya 588 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,919 replies NATO Hawks are already swooping 589 00:25:10,679 --> 00:25:16,120 in they've been waiting for this and 590 00:25:12,919 --> 00:25:18,679 then Andrew Richard comes with I believe 591 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:21,880 the definite article isn't right anymore 592 00:25:18,679 --> 00:25:24,679 the Ukraine was the old Soviet label 593 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,880 imagine me making a mistake like that 594 00:25:24,679 --> 00:25:29,320 that's all we've got time for this week 595 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:32,200 which sadly means that that's the end of 596 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:35,240 the show meantime you can reach us on 597 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,559 Twitter at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook 598 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,880 you know it it's sputnic on Russia today 599 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:42,640 it's goodbye from me gatri and from me 600 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,749 George Galloway it's been marvelous 601 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,749 [Music] 602 00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:56,999 [Music]