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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallow and me gatri most
of the great things that were ever
achieved in this country came from the
labor movement trade unions in the
workplace labor in Parliament and
Municipal Power across the country
that's not to say that everything they
did was good all that they never did
anything bad just that few of the good
things would have happened without them
20 years ago however with the Advent of
Tony Blair and new labor the party
profoundly changed its character along
with its relationship to the trade
unions who this week in 1900 gave birth
to the labor party at their Foundation
conference 14 years on the party is set
to relegate to history their
relationship with the unions at a
special conference its platform
attitudes policies and principles now
bear little resemblance to what was set
out in the that Foundation conference in
1900 and today we're asking the question
the labor party what's left our guest to
discuss this is one of the most
important men in the most important
unions in the country my own Union unite
which I joined on Christmas Eve 1973 as
the transport and general Workers Union
he's Andrew Murray Andrew uh welcome to
Sputnik is it the end at this special
Conference of the relationship between
organized labor and the party which bore
their name no it's certainly a dramatic
change but it's not the end uh after the
special conference all the most
important or the largest trade unions in
the country will remain Affiliated to
the labor party that uh connection uh
will still be there there's going to be
a difficult process of change over 5
years uh 5e period to 2020 uh at the end
of that will the landscape look
different quite possibly but uh as of
now I think all the major unions are
still with the labor party and in
particular are with the effort to get
the present government out of office
which means uh inevitably unavoidably uh
fighting for a labor victory at next
year's general election well few of us
have 2020 Vision but uh I mean aren't
the unions being treated like the
embarrassing elderly relative that
drooling in the Attic kept away from
visitors and poite Company there has
been a lot of that since the start of
new labor maybe even elements of it uh
before that isn't a golden age of the
union labor party relationship it's
always been uh fractur it's always been
difficult you'll remember very well from
the 1970s how difficult that
relationship got of course it Chang beer
and sandwiches at Downing Street with
labor prime minister you can hardly
imagine now neither the beer nor the
sandwiches nor the visitors no no that
is a piece of history and I don't think
that will that will come back I hope Ed
Milan's prime minister after the next
election he doesn't look like a beer and
sandwiches uh man particularly uh uh to
me but the relationship will be uh will
be changing I think where we are with Ed
millerand is in a better place than
where we were with Tony Blair because
Tony Blair had uh a really ingrained
contempt for organized labor and
ingrained contempt for many of the
values of the party he came to leave if
not all of them just two days ago
Alistair Campbell was out a public
fundraiser for new labor Peter mandon is
back on the creep uh endorsing Ed Balls
as a one of the few men who understand
the modern economy and uh Tony Blair has
been reinstated to an election uh
position albe it in the second tier but
nonetheless uh far from
banished and of course the shadow
cabinet is still not withstanding recent
changes still uh dominated or at least
with a very substantial force of Blair
new labor types holding in many cases Ed
mban to to hostage well none of that is
wrong George but I think there is a a
battle going on firstly let's not ever
think it was all radically different I
mean right now there is a lively and not
unjustified Nostalgia for the 1945
government that introduced a National
Health Service that maintained full
employment that nationalized many key
Industries yet you'll be well aware that
that same government uh launched many
colonial wars of aggression took Britain
into NATO took Britain into the Korean
War which in the end undid its social
program so even back then in what is now
regarded as a golden age of Labor there
was a battle going on between
Progressive and reactionary or more
right-wing uh elements now today
everything you say uh is right on the
other hand one could will Ed millerand
has said he will tackle Energy prices he
will force uh house house building a big
house building program he'll repeal the
bedroom tax it's the old question which
people say is the glass half full or is
it half empty which I would say isn't a
Marxist approach to watering glass the
question is is it filling up or draining
away and who who can actually give a
categorical answer to this I don't think
anyone could be certain but there is an
argument uh going on uh I'm
convinced that Union voices are being
heard uh in that uh public opinion even
the Diest new labor apparat is vaguely
aware that after the crash of 2008 the
old model can't be brought back to life
uh intact they realize something has to
be done uh differently and these things
will be uh resolved to some degree on on
the power of the contending uh forces if
the trade unions uh get their act
together politically and industrially
rebuild their strength that will be an
important weight uh in the scales and
that's why um Len mclusky warned this
week the leader of United leader of
unite the General Secretary of unite uh
warned against any Prospect of a lib lab
agreement after the next general
election if there's another hung
Parliament because the presence of
people like CLE the orange book free
market liberals in Alliance with some of
those elements in the shadow cabinet
that you rightly say have hardly broken
from the neoliberal dogmas of the past
that of course would fatally compromise
the best intentions of Ed millerand and
the the social Democrats uh in in the
labor party when I attended my first
labor Party Conference in
1974 we the unions had 80% of the voting
power in that conference we elected a
national executive committee which had
real power was a real powerful organ in
the party and the unions were
overwhelmingly decisive in those
elections uh they elected the treasurer
they elected the Trade union section uh
and uh the constituency labor parties
were of course to the left of the unions
uh in those days when I entered
parliament in 1987 with my transport
workers bad on we were some 40 or 50
sponsored members of parliament by the
Union in fact in fact labor leaders like
Tony Blair uh scampered to join our
group as Trade Union uh
sponsored that year is now completely
gone uh now nobody wears a trade Union
badge in Parliament I can assure you uh
and indeed the class composition of the
labor party is is overwhelmingly changed
uh when I entered Parliament more than
100 maybe 150 MPS where what you could
Clearly say were blue collar
workingclass uh MPS now you'd be lucky
to find five or 10 indeed the whole
foler in broo was about the need to get
a workingclass labor mp uh into
Parliament um I take your view that no
one can predict the outcome of this next
period but you sound rather more
confident about it than I I'm resolved I
think resolved to be in the struggle uh
uh optimism uh of the will uh that's my
attitude uh towards this there aren't
any predetermined outcomes obviously
this debate takes place against enormous
setbacks for socialism in the world and
the labor movement in Britain and other
countries over the last uh generation we
haven't recovered fully from those
setbacks but you have to come back to
the the position we have a general
election a little over a year away uh
realistically in the great majority of
constituencies uh the uh the choices the
reelecting a candidate from the
Coalition parties or a candidate from
the labor party and that uh and that's
something we have to fight to make the
best of uh uh in my opinion at this
juncture if after a general election we
find we're in a different political
situation emerging for the better or the
worst of course we have to make the best
judgments we can at that time Andrew
coming from the Netherlands the way I
see it is that the labor party the
classical formation of the labor party
um changing and moving further away from
its original principles it's not um is
not unique to UK it's throughout Europe
that's certainly the case the problems
were discussing are international ones
certainly paneuropean ones the same
factors that have impacted on the
British labor party in a particularly
lurid form are present uh generally of
course each country also has its own uh
its own background in some countries is
France uh Italy there was powerful uh
communist parties uh at one stage there
I know there is a powerful left of left
of labor party uh in the Netherlands
with its own roots and
uhy but I still think Germany is a good
example no yeah well Germany of course
is a unique absolutely unique that that
half the country or a third of the
country used to be socialist and that of
course is where the main electoral base
of delinker uh exists that's not a
situation we can recreate in Britain
when none of the countes ever been
socialist no especially with the system
look but I think the general issue which
is still reuniting the principles of
socialism with the mass of workingclass
political people through uh people
through their organizations that Still
Remains Remains the task and if I say I
think now it is still the sort of
argument to be had a battle to be fought
in the labor party I I don't at all set
myself up to go to the Netherlands or to
France or to Spain and say that they
would make the same choice in their
circumstances there are differences
Andrew Murray thanks for that a good
argument we'll have to continue it let's
hope we're both still here in 2020 with
Clear Vision coming up after the break
we'll be looking at the breakup of the
Ukraine which looks increasingly likely
following the Western funded and backed
coup which has taken place in Kiev we'll
be right
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back welcome back to Sputnik when we
discussed Ukraine on Sputnik just a
couple of weeks ago few could have
predicted the pace and the shape of
things to come a fascist anti-semitic
Squad of street fighters as some are
calling them then scarcely seemed
capable of overthrowing the government
binning the Constitution and beginning a
process which may well lead to the
dismemberment of their country but they
have the Ukrainian president is now
apparently yet another Resident of a
Moscow Hotel while an unelected
Pretender to his post is Seeking a
bailout of billions from the EU which
the people of Greece had earlier been
told could not be afforded and the
absence of which created the whole
crisis in the Ukraine in the first place
today we're asking the question the
Ukraine was right joining us now to
discuss developments in the Ukraine is
writer commentator and candidate in the
forthcoming European elections Nick
right Nick thanks for joining us when we
last dealt with this it looked like
yanukovich had a problem but that uh it
was unlikely that the groups on the
Square would succeed in overthrowing him
but they have how do you account for
that external factors I think are are
determining
here the Ukraine sits at the crossroads
of Europe and Asia it's always been an
area where competing interests have
clashed in this
case the post-war settlement if you like
flowing from the defeat of fascism has
unraveled arising principally from the
dissolution of the Soviet Union but also
through the Eastward expansion of the
European Union and of course NATO so the
borders of Russia with Western Europe if
you like traditionally or historically
the B border between socialism and
capitalism no longer characterized in
that way as move further to the east but
creating enormous tensions within Russia
but also it's presenting enormous
opportunities for very powerful forces
in the West in the European Union in the
North Atlantic Treaty Organization
Germany and Poland seem to be playing uh
a leading role who would have thought
that uh that would turn out to be the
case but let's analyze the forces at
work in the square in the Independence
Square the maidan
uh just describe for us if you would
what's right and what's anything else
amongst those forces well they reflect
really these external pressures
interestingly Germany which of course is
driving the European motor in this
particular incident and generally
speaking in fact um its preferred man
Klitschko is really unable to perform
the role that German Capital has
assigned to him and more Dynamic and
certainly deeply reactionary forces have
set the pace in the in Independent
Square in the in Kiev and they reflect
uh not just the pressure of capital and
of the western uh alliances but also the
unraveling of the tensions within
Ukrainian Society if you think of the
Ukraine has been a country in which the
surrounding nationalities all interact
you can see that it's a always a
political problem no matter who's the
dominant political force there for
instance at the end of the second world
war we had a situation in which as the
Nazi army retreated and the Red Army
Advanced other forces came into play and
so we have uh Hungarian polish and
National minorities who
are part of population movements take uh
the city which is the center of the Neo
fascist force in contemporary Ukraine
before the second world war it was the
largest population of Jewish people in
the country now it's uh denuded of Jews
for the well-known historical reasons
and anti-Semitism of course is a very
active factor in all of this with the
competing nationalisms and the competing
commercial political and economic
interests you can have anti-Semitism
without Jews and in fact in the Ukraine
now there are very few Jews but the one
of the remaining rabbis in Kiev has
called on Jews to actually leave the
city and maybe leave the country such as
the
resurgent anti-Semitism and Neo fascism
in some cases outright Fascism and
others of these forces that have now
come to the four the European Union and
the United States are going to find that
very difficult horse to ride no well
they've
um set this hair running and they can't
control it really there's an attempt
here by the forces the most reactionary
forces in Ukrainian Society to make
themselves more presentable to the
European Union because selling this
package to people in Eastern Europe is
very very difficult I mean one of the uh
frankly offensive things taking place is
the way in which the BBC described um
the Nazi Collaborators who continued to
fight against Soviet power in the
Ukraine after the second world war as
partisan
appropriating the term if you like
that's of the people that they were
murdering and assisting the Nazis Mur
which describes anti-fascist Fighters
throughout the whole of Europe there's a
a serious attempt here to manipulate
public opinion to reshape our
understanding of history and that's
vitally important I you have to think I
think you have to take an historical
view a longer view of what's happening
in Ukraine to see the forces that are in
play today are in some senses
continuation of forces that are in play
before the second World War during the
second world war during the Nazi
occupation absolutely now Russia hasn't
really spoken yet it's impossible to
imagine that Russia can accept that the
45% or so of Ukrainian citizens who are
Russians speaking uh and including
ethnic Russians in very substantial
numbers in the South and the east of the
country can be left to The Tender
Mercies of uh the revanchist
uh forces that we're talking about so
what could Russia
do well Russia's got national interests
in here but national interests I think
are also uh shot through with economic
interests as well and there are various
economic forces at play here and uh the
various regimes in particular uh the
leadership of the party of the regions
has uh obviously had a its eye on the
importance of the economic relationship
with Russia particularly uh particularly
Gas Energy supplies but Europe or rather
the European Union European Union rather
Europe actually have an interest in this
as well because this is a Transit point
so it's critically important for all
kinds of economic interests I mean
timoshenko another
reactionary irreparably corrupt and
compromised figure uh reflects if you
like that dichotomy one one day she
leans to the West one day she leans to
the east if there's profit to be made in
the deal on the East she'll take it if
she was as the gas princess absolutely
but at the same time she plays games
with the West she plays games with the
most reactionary forces in uh Eastern
Galia in particular um and is in
competition for them for vote with them
for votes in that part of the world uh
the I I suspect that all of the
political formations possibly with the
exception of the Ukrainian Communist
Party are in a state of great flux at
the moment and we may well see some
political realignments well the Country
Split up mean is it is partition of the
country a
possibility I think it's a possibility
but I think there are powerful interest
against that both on in the European
Union and in in Russia I think there is
some pressure and this may reflect
tensions with inside the European Union
and tensions between the European Union
and the United States and was that F
Well publicized spat between the USA in
the European Union a few weeks ago there
are tensions there which may mean that
people would prefer a Federal solution
to the National question in the Ukraine
and clearly when you look at a map of
the Ukraine I mean if you if you impose
the British first pass of post electoral
system on the Ukraine there' probably be
half a dozen seats of which would be
swing seats the rest are fairly clearly
identified on one side of the other but
it's a very fragmented picture you know
it's not East and West it's there are
National minorities there are langu
linguistic groups there are economic
interests for instance there's several
several dozen MPS elected in the last
election who weren't on any other the
party less they had a they had a serious
local base so it's a much more complex
political situation in the Ukraine than
I think the simplistic analyses which
are predominant in the media in Britain
and Western Europe and the United States
really allow for but the president is
now seemingly out of the country and new
government is being formed but the
people on the streets still don't seem
very satisfied I are they not just a
bunch of hooligans can there's a very
powerful hooligan element in there
that's absolutely true but I think
there's a also one of the factors
driving the the the movement on the
streets is the Deep revulsion right
throughout Ukrainian Society against
corruption and this is the inevitable
consequence of the breakup of the Soviet
Union and of the uh encroachment of uh
foreign Capital with a particular with
particular interest and also the way in
which uh people were a some very corrupt
people and criminal people were able to
aggregate enormous wealth they've
appropriated Collective social public
property it's now private property and
with that comes the inevitable
corruption and with that political
stresses and strains but I think what's
driving the street in has been over the
last few uh weeks has been um the
actions are the far right who are
particularly well organized and
supported very interesting funded funded
very interesting commentary in uh in the
Chinese press just the last couple of
days which pointed to the um theatrical
orchestrated visual nature of the
protests in central Kiev in which uh
they had a kind of uh spectacle a about
them but for instance um you know these
power these Flames every time the Flames
died down somebody put a bit more
kerosene on them so that the uh the the
cameras had a uh a uh dramatic image and
I think we have to be very critical of
the media in this country I mean Channel
4 News which is probably one of the
better news services in Britain um had
some frankly appalling coverage from
Matt Fry um of course he's a uh got a
power a big track record in Central
Europe and Germany you know and I think
we have to be very sensitive to what the
different forces are at play here and
how these are represented in the media
the the political reality on the ground
is more complex than it appears uh on
the surface Nick right thanks for
joining us fo
Nick now it's your turn to tell us what
you think in the social media review
what's rattling G labor party what's
left someone under the name Teresa may
says left right when the light goes dark
and they're all in the shadows there's
no difference they are all literally in
it together what a wonderful tweet that
can't be the real M I don't think so
either but it's a it's a wonderfully
profound observation very I must say
Andrew is very sanguin about I didn't
want to embarrass him but the unions are
paying a huge sum of money many millions
of pounds every year for clearly and and
clearly
delineated diminishing returns anyway go
on wake up UK says labor brings nothing
to the table except embarrassment and
this is exactly the line which was in
the guardian uh this past week about
Tony Blair of course how Blair has gone
from an icon to an embarrassment but uh
Milan doesn't seem able to shake him off
another good one from Russell Bland
saying how about right labor quite catch
you double meaning yet only one is
correct they're right as in Tor right I
don't actually myself uh accept that we
will of course be discussing both the
conservative party and the liberal
Democrats for that matter over the
course of the next months and uh no
doubt that will become apparent so the
Ukraine was right there to which Maya
replies NATO Hawks are already swooping
in they've been waiting for this and
then Andrew Richard comes with I believe
the definite article isn't right anymore
the Ukraine was the old Soviet label
imagine me making a mistake like that
that's all we've got time for this week
which sadly means that that's the end of
the show meantime you can reach us on
Twitter at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook
you know it it's sputnic on Russia today
it's goodbye from me gatri and from me
George Galloway it's been marvelous
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